Diqduq Geeks

2005-08-30T09:12:00.000-07:00

From: Steg
Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [diqduqgeeks] Hebrew encoding, greeting formula

I've been writing in Hebrew Windows? I thought i was using Unicode...weird.

הבה ננסה משהו
والآن العربية
[eǝnd̚ sm̩ aj piː ej tʰuː]

-Steg

On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:52 AM, Mar Gavriel wrote:

> You're writing in "Unicode" Aramaic, whereas Steg and I have been
> writing in "Hebrew (Windows)" Hebrew/Aramaic. I don't think that this
> can be controlled. Of course, your quote from my post came out as
> gibberish, but you can't have everything....

2005-08-30T09:10:00.000-07:00

From: Steg
Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: [diqduqgeeks] Ashkenazim and the GemiNation

On Jul 26, 2005, at 4:00 AM, Lipman wrote:

> Steg wrote:
>> As far as i remember, no natural Ashkenazic dialects preserve _dageish
>> hhazaq_ gemination. Individual Ashkenazim may use it, but it's a
>> conscious choice.
> Exactly. But somehow it seems to have escaped linguists that, as I
> wrote, a very strong indirect trace of it is there, at least in those dialects
> that make a difference between long and short vowels, such all of
> Western Ashkenazi, and parts of Eastern (Galicia). Phonologically and so,
> halachically, IMO, this is equivalent in most cases.
> Guess what's the exception.
> Lipman
> ~ °
> [ 8~)

»Is the exception...the final consonant in "Shema`.... H' ehhad"? Where some people try to lengthen it by geminating a hard /d/ since they have no soft "dh"sound?

-Steg

2005-08-30T09:09:00.000-07:00

From: Steg
Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:52 am
Subject: Blog Post: Reading Places as Verbs/Nouns

heyall,

Check out the blog post i put up in the middle of the night last night:
http://boroparkpyro.blogspot.com/2005/07/blog-post_25.html

(the timestamp it is for mid-afternoon, though, since that's when i
started it)

-Steg

2005-08-30T09:04:00.000-07:00

From: Lipman
Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:30 am
Subject: Re: [diqduqgeeks] Hebrew encoding, greeting formula

> You're writing in "Unicode" Aramaic, whereas Steg and I have been
> writing in "Hebrew (Windows)" Hebrew/Aramaic. I don't think that this
> can be controlled.

I'll try. Anyway, when I signed up, I set the format to HTML. At least that was probably the right thing to do.

> Of course, your quote from my post came out as gibberish, but you can't
> have everything....

I changed from "Automatic" to "Hebrew (Windows)" in order to read your message, and let it like that when I answered. Then I copied and pasted the Mishne brure quote from the BI CD as it was. I checked my "out" folder and it was gibberish, until I changed back to "Automatic". I'm using Opera for mails and browsing, aggev orche.

> No. "Tsafro Tovo" is an expression that I have heard in many settings in
> both NY and Israel (or Palestine). It's usually considered a bit quaint,
> but it's not too uncommon.

Cheers, I didn't know. I think "quaint" is a good expression, but in apositive sense.

> By the way, what's TIC?

Sorry: tongue-in-cheek.

> As I understood it, it's not allowed. (Although I vaguely remember
> hearing somewhere that there's a shitta that everything other than the
> actual word "shÃ…ï¿½lÃ…ï¿½m" is permitted, and that this might be the pashTus
> of the sughyo. What's permitted is saying "tsafro dhe-marrei Tav" (or
> is that TÃ…ï¿½v?).

Exactly, but dawqa in Aramaic? I think not.

> I don't know what the nÃ…ï¿½feqÃ…ï¿½ minnah is, exactly...

Sholoum is regarded as a name of God?

>> The oldest occurence I found was in the beginning of a
>> responsum (is this too posh? Is "a responsa" too colloquial?) of the Mases
>>Binyomen. My impression is:
>>a) it was used in writing only,
>>and b) where it occurs in rabbinical literature in sentences like Ã—Å¾Ã—Â©Ã—Â Ã—â€Ã—â€˜Ã—Â¨Ã—â€¢Ã—Â¨Ã—â€>> Ã—Â¡Ã—â„¢Ã—Å¾Ã—Å¸ Ã—ÂªÃ—Â§Ã—Â Ã—â€œ Ã—Â¡"Ã—Â§ Ã—Å¾Ã—ï¿½> Ã—Å¾Ã—ï¿½) Ã—ï¿½Ã—â„¢Ã—Å¸ Ã—Â©Ã—ï¿½Ã—Å“Ã—Âª Ã—Â©Ã—Å“Ã—â€¢Ã—ï¿½Ã—â€¢Ã—â€ºÃ—â€¢' - Ã—â€¢Ã—â€"Ã—â€ Ã—Å“Ã—â€¢Ã—Å¾Ã—Â¨ Ã—Å“Ã—â€¢Ã—Â¦Ã—Â¤Ã—Â¨Ã—ï¿½> Ã—ËœÃ—â€˜Ã—ï¿½ Ã—Â Ã—Å¾Ã—â„¢ Ã—ï¿½Ã—Â¡Ã—â€¢Ã—Â¨.>
>> it doesn't mean "to say to him Tzafro tovo", but "to bid him a good morning".
>
> Are you sure?

No, merely suspicious.

> (Why not "response" and "responses"?)

Probably because "response" has a broader meaning, and "responsum" is a specific term.

> (Is asuse actually heard in living Yiddish? I'm not sure I've ever
> actually heard it, though it sounds a lot like the sneeze itself....)

Yeah, that's so nice about it. I'm not sure if it's constrained to WY.

Best,

Lipman

2005-08-30T09:02:00.000-07:00

Steg wrote:

> As far as i remember, no natural Ashkenazic dialects preserve _dageish
> hhazaq_ gemination. Individual Ashkenazim may use it, but it's a
> conscious choice.

Exactly. But somehow it seems to have escaped linguists that, as I wrote, a very strong indirect trace of it is there, at least in those dialects that make a difference between long and short vowels, such all of Western Ashkenazi, and parts of Eastern (Galicia).

Phonologically and so, halachically, IMO, this is equivalent in most cases. Guess what's the exception.

Lipman

~ °
[8~)»

2005-08-30T08:43:00.000-07:00

You're writing in "Unicode" Aramaic, whereas Steg and I have been writing in "Hebrew (Windows)" Hebrew/Aramaic. I don't think that this can be controlled. Of course, your quote from my post came out as gibberish, but you can't have everything.... Lipman wrote:

>Shlomo rabbo legavrayo ravrevayo loy"t, > >I can read the Hebrew (after manually changing the code), but >I'm not sure >about posting. We'll see :-). >> ׳³ן¿½׳³ג„¢׳³ן¿½׳³ג„¢׳³ן¿½ ׳³ֻ׳³ג€˜׳³ן¿½ ׳³ן¿½׳²ֲ°׳³ג€÷׳²ֲ»׳³ן¿½׳²ֲ¼׳²ֲ°׳³ג€÷׳³ג€¢׳²ֲ¹׳³ן¿½, > >You're writing this more or less TIC, I take it, but isn't >this English in an Aramaic shell?

No. "Tsafro Tovo" is an expression that I have heard in many settings in both NY and Israel (or Palestine). It's usually considered a bit quaint, but it's not too uncommon. By the way, what's TIC?

>A friend of mine used to say "Tzafro tovo" when we met on our way to >Shachris. I never asked him where he picked this up, I mean, why it >should be allowed to greet in Aramaic before oring, but not in other >languages.

As I understood it, it's not allowed. (Although I vaguely remember hearing somewhere that there's a shitta that everything other than the actual word "shŏlōm" is permitted, and that this might be the pashTus of the sughyo. What's permitted is saying "tsafro dhe-marrei Tav" (or is that Tŏv?). I don't know what the nŏfeqŏ minnah is, exactly...

>The oldest occurence I found was in the beginning of a >responsum (is this >too posh? Is "a responsa" too colloquial?) of the Mases >Binyomen. My impression is: a) it was used in writing only, >and b) where it occurs in rabbinical literature in sentences >like ׳׳©׳ ׳” ׳‘׳¨׳•׳¨׳” ׳¡׳™׳׳ ׳×׳§׳ ׳“ ׳¡"׳§ ׳׳ ׳׳) ׳׳™׳ ׳©׳׳׳× ׳©׳׳•׳ ׳•׳›׳•' - ׳•׳”"׳” ׳׳•׳׳¨ ׳׳• ׳¦׳₪׳¨׳ ׳˜׳‘׳ ׳ ׳׳™ ׳׳¡׳•׳¨. >it doesn't mean "to say to him Tzafro tovo", but "to bid him >a good morning".

Are you sure? BTW, sing. is "responsum"; pl. "responsums" and "responsa" are both fine, though the first is considered more correct, and is more widespread. (Why not "response" and "responses"?) >BTW, are there Aramaic greeting formulas (-ae?) among Ashkenazim of >the last 1000 years except "asuse/esuse" after sneezing?
(Is asuse actually heard in living Yiddish? I'm not sure I've ever actually heard it, though it sounds a lot like the sneeze itself....)

>Omnia optimi, > >Lipman [... ...] > >[ 8~)»

2005-08-30T08:37:00.000-07:00

From: Lipman
Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:53 am
Subject: Re: BGDKP"T

Alas, you are wrong, my dear Lipman. As Sa`adya Gha'on points out in his
commentary on Sepher Yetsira (as translated by Ze'ev Ben Hayyim, as
quoted in H. Yalon's מבוא לניקוד המשנה, p. 121:
מנהג לשון אבותינו הוא... ואין זה נוהג במקרא בלבד, אלא בכל הדיבור והשיחה, אף בקרב הנשים, כמו שמספרים, כי אישה אחת הלכה אל המורה ואמרה לו יא ספרא אפני בֿרי, ולא אמרה בְּרִי דגוש, ואחת מהן קראה לבנה גּד גּד דגוש ולא נענה, ואז קראה יא גֿד רפי, מפני שהוסיפה יא.

I read this years ago, and I'm still fascinated. At that point of the comment thread, I didn't see you were deliberately choosing this state of the language.

Actually, which state and layer of Hebrew do you use? And why? (I say tíshebaV, as my ancestors during the last 12 to 24 generations.)

Concerning the issue itself, it's a can of worms, as I'm sure you know. The example quoted by Sa-adyo Go-oun is Babylonian Jewish Aramaic, and there is a theory that here, and only in Aramaic, the begad-kefas rules apply, and were then imposed by the masoretes on BH. (Personally, I don't think this is necessarily a problem of emune and hashkofe.)

Best,

Lipman

2005-08-30T08:33:00.000-07:00

From: Lipman
Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:24 am
Subject: Hebrew encoding, greeting formula

Shlomo rabbo legavrayo ravrevayo loy"t,

I can read the Hebrew (after manually changing the code), but I'm not sure about posting. We'll see :-).

> ׳�׳™׳�׳™׳� ׳˜׳‘׳�׳�ײ°׳›ײ»׳�ײ¼ײ°׳›׳•ײ¹׳�,

You're writing this more or less TIC, I take it, but isn't this English inan Aramaic shell?

A friend of mine used to say "Tzafro tovo" when we met on our way to Shachris. I never asked him where he picked this up, I mean, why it should be allowed to greet in Aramaic before oring, but not in other languages.

The oldest occurence I found was in the beginning of a responsum (is this too posh? Is "a responsa" too colloquial?) of the Mases Binyomen. My impression is: a) it was used in writing only, and b) where it occurs in rabbinical literature in sentences like משנה ברורה סימן תקנד ס"ק מא מא) אין שאלת שלום וכו' - וה"ה לומר לו צפרא טבא נמי אסור. it doesn't mean "to say to him Tzafro tovo", but "to bid him a good morning".

BTW, are there Aramaic greeting formulas (-ae?) among Ashkenazim of thelast 1000 years except "asuse/esuse" after sneezing?

Omnia optimi,

Lipman [... ...] [ 8~)»

2005-08-30T08:29:00.000-07:00

From: Steg
Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:26 am
Subject: Ashkenazim and the GemiNation

As far as i remember, no natural Ashkenazic dialects preserve _dageish hhazaq_ gemination. Individual Ashkenazim may use it, but it's a conscious choice.

-Steg / שטג

2005-08-30T08:28:00.000-07:00

From: Mar Gavriel
Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:57 pm
Subject: Re: [diqduqgeeks] BGDKP"T

To view the Hebrew in my last posting in Internet Explorer, go to "View", then "Encoding", and select "Hebrew (Windows)". I suppose that it would be a fairly similar process in other web browsers, but I can't tell you for sure.

ליליא טבא לְכֻלְּכוֹן,
Mar Gavriel

2005-08-29T14:05:00.000-07:00

From: Mar Gavriel
Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:53 pm
Subject: BGDKP"T

Sometime early this morning (or late last night), Lipman wrote:

>Mar Gavriel, the rules you give are for Biblical Hebrew. Exclusively.
>
>>Perhaps it is comical that I follow technical rules of
>>Hebrew grammar when I am using Hebrew words in English
>>sentences. That's just how I talk.
>
>Tath is bery chomichal indeedh. I'dh likhe tho hear you onece.

Alas, you are wrong, my dear Lipman. As Sa`adya Gha'on points out in his commentary on Sepher Yetsira (as translated by Ze'ev Ben Hayyim, as quoted in H. Yalon's מבוא לניקוד המשנה, p. 121:

מנהג לשון אבותינו הוא... ואין זה נוהג במקרא בלבד, אלא בכל הדיבור והשיחה, אף בקרב הנשים, כמו שמספרים, כי אישה אחת הלכה אל המורה ואמרה לו יא ספרא אפני בֿרי, ולא אמרה בְּרִי דגוש, ואחת מהן קראה לבנה גּד גּד דגוש ולא נענה, ואז קראה יא גֿד רפי, מפני שהוסיפה יא.

Mar Gavriel